Comments on: A good conscience is an educated conscience

By: Colin Postma

Colin Postma — Thu, 11 Nov 2010 06:41:44 +0000

Certainly.

By: David Murray

David Murray — Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:11:09 +0000

Colin, you make some very good points and raise some very good questions. Allow me to make a further study of this over the next few weeks and I’ll get back to you with a response.I enjoy the interaction too: iron sharpening iron.

By: Colin Postma

Colin Postma — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 19:56:55 +0000

First, I have re-read my first post and would like to apologize if it comes across rather judgmental and unloving. That was not the intention. I greatly appreciate the work you have been doing in this blog, which I read daily, and the hard work you do as a Teacher at the Seminary, and do not presume to know more or have studied more than you. Yet I do enjoy a good discussion on such topics, and desire in the process to learn more myself. Second, I have never studied Hebrew, but the Hebrew verb ‘to know’ would seem to mean not only ‘to be skillful at, to be able’ but has an action component too. ‘Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain.’ Genesis 4:1. ‘Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked.’ Genesis 3:7. Adam and Eve did not know that they were naked before the fall and their eyes being opened signals that they did not fully understand the depth of guilt and disobedience. Certainly they understood what disobedience to God was – ‘but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’ They fully understood that disobedience would reap serious repercussions, however I think they knew nothing of the ‘Knowledge of Good and Evil’ until they had actually partaken of the fruit, had felt the wrath of the Lord, their eyes had been opened and they realized the gravity of their situation, and took actions to cover themselves of the guilt and shame. For example – as a child playing in a garden, you can understand that their are plants, and that some of the plants are edible and some your Mother may have forbidden you to touch. However, you cannot know which the edible plants are, nor which the poisonous plants are, nor even know that there is a difference between the edible and poisonous plants until you have reached out your arm in disobedience and stuff one of the forbidden plants into your mouth, and come to realize and feel the consequences of your disobedience and you become sick.Though this example does not fit the scenario directly (my eating of a forbidden plant in disobedience doesn’t give a knowledge of good and evil since we are born with such knowledge) but certainly it relays my point that for our first parents who had never experienced sin and disobedience could not have a knowledge of good and evil until they had done so. ‘To end my argument what do you think of the following verse – “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Genesis 3:22. Again I don’t know the original language but the words ‘has become’ would indicate that the serpent was right when he told Adam and Eve that they would be like God knowing good and evil, and that Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before the fall into sin. Colin Postma

By: David Murray

David Murray — Fri, 29 Oct 2010 17:43:14 +0000

Colin, I believe that Adam and Eve were created with perfect knowledge of right and wrong. As Adam was made in the image of God, he had the moral law of God written on his heart before the fall. As the Westminster Shorter Catechism put it: He was made in the image of God, with knowledge, righteousness and holiness… The command not to eat of the tree was in addition to the moral laws he already was aware of and which were buttressed by his conscience encouraging him to do good and warning him about evil. The Hebrew verb “to know” can mean “to be skillful at, to be able.” “Good and evil” can mean everything there is. The Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil therefore represents the ability to do everything. That’s why when the Devil tempted Eve to eat the tree he said, “You shall be as gods.” God was testing Adam and Eve’s submission to His sovereignty by forbidding that tree. That’s why their sin was so bad. It was not just eating a piece of fruit. It was a rejection of His sovereignty and a desire to take His place. Hope that might stimulate further thought.

By: David Murray

David Murray — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:59:26 +0000

Thanks for the interaction. Colin, I’ve changed my careless use of “born.” I’ll get back to you on the other point after my classes today.

By: Colin Postma

Colin Postma — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:53:55 +0000

Dr. Murray,Though I would agree with the conclusions of this article, and firmly believe in educating our minds through God’s Word, yet I disagree with the statements of the first paragraph for the following reasons:1. On somewhat of a superficial note, Adam and Eve were never born, but created of God2. Adam and Eve were not created with perfect knowledge of right and wrong – since they first had to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil before this became a reality. In verse 17 of Genesis 2 the Lord says, ‘But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’ And in verse 5 of Genesis 3 the serpent uses this point as a means of advertising the sin of eating the fruit of that tree, ‘For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.’ This would imply that they did not know good and evil until they had eaten of the fruit of the tree. Or am I reading in to this wrong? Colin