Comments on: A Counseling Policy for your Church?

By: Charlie Lyons

Charlie Lyons — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 01:33:29 +0000

Same comment as Rachel above…

By: Rachel

Rachel — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:36:26 +0000

The links no longer work. Any idea where I can access this document? Thanks

By: Amanda Naves

Amanda Naves — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 03:18:07 +0000

Hi Dr. Murray,Just wanted to say that I thought this article was pretty interesting – I am in my first year of Biblical Counselling studies, and am not exactly sure what I want to do with my degree. I do know that I want to be involved mainly in Christian counselling, and had been wondering how my role as a counsellor would be integrated with the church. It was good to read how the pastor, counsellor, and client would work together…

By: Bob Kellemen

Bob Kellemen — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 18:48:23 +0000

David, I think that change would help significantly. Thank you. Again, I’m not an apologist for Jay Adams–he defends and explains himself quite well without my help. I do think that his cultural context in the 50s-70s (when he began writing and ministry) explains some of the perceptions as we read him and others today in 2011. The pendulum had swung away from any biblical sense of responsibility (as Holifield cogently explains in his work, A History of Pastoral Care in America). When folks pull the pendulum the other way, at times it swings too far. Many nouthetic/biblical counselors writing today and teaching today (Powlison, Tripp, Lane, Viars, Cheong, Henderson, Lelek, Patten, Higbee, Fitzpatrick, Reju, Wilkerson, Hambrick, etc., etc.) provide the clear nuance that you and I appreciate and attempt to communicate. I don’t want to dominate your comment board, so I’ll simply thank you again for your engagement here and your overall ministry. Bob

By: David Murray

David Murray — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 18:47:37 +0000

Edited document posted.

By: David Murray

David Murray — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 18:38:30 +0000

Thanks Bob. I’ve suggested to Danny that he simply removes “as some in the modern ‘biblical counseling’ or ‘nouthetic counseling’ movement state” be removed, and the sentence changed to: “We do not believe that all counseling problems we encounter in this life are the result of some particular sin.” That removes the polemical and potentially misleading element, while retaining the most important point in the sentence.Your helpful exegesis of these Jay Adams quotes highlights for me what I’ve been troubled about for some time in some counseling writing and speaking. Why do some write and speak in such a way that it leaves most “ordinary” (non-academic) readers with one impression (All my problems are the result of my personal sin alone), when they do not actually believe that?The “whispered”, scholarly, complicated, and contextual qualifications and nuancing pass most “ordinary” people by, while the BIG BOLD AND DAMAGING GENERALIZATIONS leave the abiding impression. The qualifications need to become much louder and the seeming generalizations need to be abandoned. Anyway, I know from your own careful writing and speaking that we are on the same page there!

By: Bob Kellemen

Bob Kellemen — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 18:14:52 +0000

David, Thank you for engaging me on these thoughts. I would defer to Jay Adams to expand upon his thinking in those two quotes. However, I still doubt that he would agree with the statement: “all counseling problems we encounter in this life are the result of some particular sin.” Even in the two quotes you give, I do not hear him saying that. In the first quote, he is referencing specific individuals and giving his assessment of the etiology of their particular issues (not all issues for all people). In the second quote, reading it in context, it is much more nuanced, as his initial paragraph addresses numerous potential “root” issues. Regardless, I still know of no nouthetic/biblical counselors who state, “all counseling problems we encounter in this life are the result of some particular sin.” Biblical counseling is much more robust, compassionate, comprehensive, and relational than that.

By: David Murray

David Murray — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 17:59:37 +0000

Thanks Bob. I’ve forwarded your comment to Danny for response/clarification. I agree that this needs further qualification. However, perhaps Danny had in mind statements such as: “Apart from those who had organic problems like brain damage, the people I met in the two institutions in Illinois were there because of their own failure to meet life’s problems. To put it simply, they were there because of their unforgiven and unaltered sinful behavior.” [Jay Adams, Competent to Counsel (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1970), xvi.]“The hope for the depressed person, as elsewhere, lies in this: the depression is the result of the counselee’s sin.” [Jay Adams, Christian Counselor Manual (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973), 378.]These presuppositions seem to still be quite influential in some circles in the USA, although they are not usually consistently put into practice.

By: Bob Kellemen

Bob Kellemen — Tue, 04 Jan 2011 17:19:10 +0000

Thanks for this interesting article. One important clarification. The author says, “We do not believe, as some in the modern “biblical counseling” or “nouthetic counseling” movement state, that all counseling problems we encounter in this life are the result of some particular sin.” I don’t know any “nouthetic” or “biblical” counselors who state this. It seems, to me, to be a false and unhelpful stereotype. If the author has any supporting quotes/resources/references, I would be interested to read them.