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	<title>Comments on: A Theology of Biblical Counseling: Questions and Clarifications (2)</title>
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	<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/</link>
	<description> Informing Minds. Moving Hearts. Directing Hands.</description>
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		<title>By: David Murray</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49391</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I share your frustration Andy and it&#039;s that inconsistency that I&#039;m really trying to get at in these articles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share your frustration Andy and it&#8217;s that inconsistency that I&#8217;m really trying to get at in these articles.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Barlow</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49326</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy Barlow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2016 19:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=23640#comment-49326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Murray, thank you for this post. I think you have articulated well the issue that has long frustrated me with the rhetoric of many biblical counselors. On the one hand, they claim the bible is absolutely sufficient and that insights from psychology are not necessary (unlike those bad Christian Counselors who don&#039;t believe in sufficiency!). But on the other hand, they always seem to concede that insights from psychology are helpful and can fill in gaps. To me, to concede that latter functionally destroys the former. 

I suppose what is maddening about it all is that, in one sentence they&#039;re wagging their fingers at Christian counselors for rejecting sufficiency, but in the next sentence they&#039;re functionally adopting the very position they were just criticizing (I think because they intuitively know it&#039;s an absurd and unlivable position)!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Murray, thank you for this post. I think you have articulated well the issue that has long frustrated me with the rhetoric of many biblical counselors. On the one hand, they claim the bible is absolutely sufficient and that insights from psychology are not necessary (unlike those bad Christian Counselors who don&#8217;t believe in sufficiency!). But on the other hand, they always seem to concede that insights from psychology are helpful and can fill in gaps. To me, to concede that latter functionally destroys the former. </p>
<p>I suppose what is maddening about it all is that, in one sentence they&#8217;re wagging their fingers at Christian counselors for rejecting sufficiency, but in the next sentence they&#8217;re functionally adopting the very position they were just criticizing (I think because they intuitively know it&#8217;s an absurd and unlivable position)!</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Les]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2016 22:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=23640#comment-49101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, they are too far away for now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, they are too far away for now.</p>
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		<title>By: David Murray</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49092</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Adam. Wonderful to hear about your positive experience. Your comment reminds me of Challies&#039; post that rebuked Christians for sweeping generalizations about public school teachers. There may be some &quot;Christian Counselors&quot; that are simply Christians doing secular counseling. However, it is unfair to write them all off. In my experience there are some who call themselves &quot;biblical counselors&quot; who are more like the best &quot;Christian counselors&quot; and vice versa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Adam. Wonderful to hear about your positive experience. Your comment reminds me of Challies&#8217; post that rebuked Christians for sweeping generalizations about public school teachers. There may be some &#8220;Christian Counselors&#8221; that are simply Christians doing secular counseling. However, it is unfair to write them all off. In my experience there are some who call themselves &#8220;biblical counselors&#8221; who are more like the best &#8220;Christian counselors&#8221; and vice versa.</p>
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		<title>By: David Murray</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[So sorry to hear this Les. I&#039;d follow John&#039;s advice. Many people have been helped through that list. The biblical counselors around the country are like hidden diamonds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So sorry to hear this Les. I&#8217;d follow John&#8217;s advice. Many people have been helped through that list. The biblical counselors around the country are like hidden diamonds.</p>
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		<title>By: John Divito</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49083</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Divito]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Les, if you are looking for biblical counselors, you can find a list here: http://www.biblicalcounseling.com/counselors]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Les, if you are looking for biblical counselors, you can find a list here: <a href="http://www.biblicalcounseling.com/counselors" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblicalcounseling.com/counselors</a></p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49082</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Les]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=23640#comment-49082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How can I find a counselor like this? There aren&#039;t any Christian counselors that resemble this where I live and I feel like what I &#039;m receiving is a waste of time sine I cannot discuss faith with them. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can I find a counselor like this? There aren&#8217;t any Christian counselors that resemble this where I live and I feel like what I &#8216;m receiving is a waste of time sine I cannot discuss faith with them. </p>
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		<title>By: John Divito</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49081</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Divito]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=23640#comment-49081</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Murray, I think that a helpful way to frame this discussion is to compare counseling approaches with apologetic methodologies. It seems to me that biblical counseling uses a presuppositionalist epistemology. All humans share a common identity as image bearers of God, yet since the Fall there is an antithesis between those who are in Christ and those who are in Adam. At the same time, God in His kindness to His image bearers bestows common grace. As a result, knowledge needs to be filtered through this biblical worldview: &quot;The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction&quot; (Proverbs 1:7).

To continue this comparison, I relate biblical counseling to presuppositionalism whereas integrationist counseling is related to evidentialism. The problem with evidentialism is not that they use evidences, but that they begin by assuming a neutral starting point through which to assess and evaluate the evidence. Unfortunately, since there is no neutral ground between those who are in Christ and those who are in Adam, evidentialism begins by granting unbelieving presuppositions in their defense of the Christian faith. In a similar way, integrationist counseling does not recognize the inherent antithesis or opposition between believers and unbelievers. As a result, biblical counseling counters integrationist counseling by beginning with a biblical worldview. 

So the question is not about the benefit of &quot;science and observation&quot; (steps 3-5), but the presuppositions and supposed neutrality of secular science and observation (steps 1-2). I think this difference is found when Lambert says &quot;biblical counselors do not rely to any degree on the counseling insights of secular people.&quot; The key word here is &quot;rely,&quot; to depend on or to trust in secular counseling. This is different than maintaining that one approach &quot;accepts secular sources whereas the other never does.&quot; With this in mind, I think that you are setting up a contradiction in the biblical counseling approach that is not there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Murray, I think that a helpful way to frame this discussion is to compare counseling approaches with apologetic methodologies. It seems to me that biblical counseling uses a presuppositionalist epistemology. All humans share a common identity as image bearers of God, yet since the Fall there is an antithesis between those who are in Christ and those who are in Adam. At the same time, God in His kindness to His image bearers bestows common grace. As a result, knowledge needs to be filtered through this biblical worldview: &#8220;The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction&#8221; (Proverbs 1:7).</p>
<p>To continue this comparison, I relate biblical counseling to presuppositionalism whereas integrationist counseling is related to evidentialism. The problem with evidentialism is not that they use evidences, but that they begin by assuming a neutral starting point through which to assess and evaluate the evidence. Unfortunately, since there is no neutral ground between those who are in Christ and those who are in Adam, evidentialism begins by granting unbelieving presuppositions in their defense of the Christian faith. In a similar way, integrationist counseling does not recognize the inherent antithesis or opposition between believers and unbelievers. As a result, biblical counseling counters integrationist counseling by beginning with a biblical worldview. </p>
<p>So the question is not about the benefit of &#8220;science and observation&#8221; (steps 3-5), but the presuppositions and supposed neutrality of secular science and observation (steps 1-2). I think this difference is found when Lambert says &#8220;biblical counselors do not rely to any degree on the counseling insights of secular people.&#8221; The key word here is &#8220;rely,&#8221; to depend on or to trust in secular counseling. This is different than maintaining that one approach &#8220;accepts secular sources whereas the other never does.&#8221; With this in mind, I think that you are setting up a contradiction in the biblical counseling approach that is not there.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Embry</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/04/05/23640/#comment-49080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Embry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Another helpful blog, in my opinion. I think reading Eric Johnson&#039;s distinction of the supremacy (primacy) of Scripture was helpful for me, and it&#039;s a distinction that I&#039;m not sure the biblical counseling movement is giving a fair treatment. It can approach intellectually dishonest to say that Christian counselers do not believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. I went to a Christian counselor last year. He had a list of NT passages that focused on union with Christ, some 22 pages of them. There was some CBT in his methodology, but it helped me focus on the nature &amp; categories of my false beliefs and how they were harmful to me and what triggered them. I&#039;ve not seen such a list in biblical counseling circles. The NT passages were a great source of meditation. He consistently focused on how Christ can heal me. He blew away misconceptions I had of Christian counseling. I hope I haven&#039;t shared too much, but evaluations such as yours are helpful. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another helpful blog, in my opinion. I think reading Eric Johnson&#8217;s distinction of the supremacy (primacy) of Scripture was helpful for me, and it&#8217;s a distinction that I&#8217;m not sure the biblical counseling movement is giving a fair treatment. It can approach intellectually dishonest to say that Christian counselers do not believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. I went to a Christian counselor last year. He had a list of NT passages that focused on union with Christ, some 22 pages of them. There was some CBT in his methodology, but it helped me focus on the nature &amp; categories of my false beliefs and how they were harmful to me and what triggered them. I&#8217;ve not seen such a list in biblical counseling circles. The NT passages were a great source of meditation. He consistently focused on how Christ can heal me. He blew away misconceptions I had of Christian counseling. I hope I haven&#8217;t shared too much, but evaluations such as yours are helpful. </p>
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