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	<title>Comments on: Pastoral Visitation a &#8220;Sign of Sickness&#8221; and a &#8220;Step Towards Death&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/</link>
	<description> Informing Minds. Moving Hearts. Directing Hands.</description>
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		<title>By: samloveall</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[samloveall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In regard to your second paragraph, perhaps you missed this sentence:  &quot;Let’s allow 5 hours per week for personal development/reading, etc.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regard to your second paragraph, perhaps you missed this sentence:  &#8220;Let’s allow 5 hours per week for personal development/reading, etc.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Scribblepreach Awards 09.10.16 &#124; Scribblepreach.com</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scribblepreach Awards 09.10.16 &#124; Scribblepreach.com]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] and let you duke it out: 15 Reasons Your Pastors Should Not Visit Much, and the response:  Pastoral Visitation a &#8220;Sign of Sickness&#8221;? I wonder if this debate actually has more to do with church size. I can see Dr. Murray&#8217;s [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and let you duke it out: 15 Reasons Your Pastors Should Not Visit Much, and the response:  Pastoral Visitation a &#8220;Sign of Sickness&#8221;? I wonder if this debate actually has more to do with church size. I can see Dr. Murray&#8217;s [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: nmcdonal</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49544</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nmcdonal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Dr. Murray - I appreciate your insight on this, and your wisdom as always. I&#039;m not sure I can quite agree on the scriptural parallels, however, with Jesus and the Apostles. After all, anytime they visit the sick, it&#039;s to DO something about it, namely, to heal. I don&#039;t see that at all being the purpose of pastoral visitations, which I confess I&#039;ve always been baffled by. I&#039;ve wondered aloud to my wife about why hospital visitations have become part of a pastor&#039;s job description, because honestly I do not picture Paul doing a lot of that sort of thing without the miraculous component. I&#039;m surely in the minority, here...but was curious as to your thoughts exegetically speaking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dr. Murray &#8211; I appreciate your insight on this, and your wisdom as always. I&#8217;m not sure I can quite agree on the scriptural parallels, however, with Jesus and the Apostles. After all, anytime they visit the sick, it&#8217;s to DO something about it, namely, to heal. I don&#8217;t see that at all being the purpose of pastoral visitations, which I confess I&#8217;ve always been baffled by. I&#8217;ve wondered aloud to my wife about why hospital visitations have become part of a pastor&#8217;s job description, because honestly I do not picture Paul doing a lot of that sort of thing without the miraculous component. I&#8217;m surely in the minority, here&#8230;but was curious as to your thoughts exegetically speaking.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Stutzman</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Stutzman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2016 01:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can understand and appreciate your vantage point. However, I still side with Dr. Rainer. Frankly a 45 hour work week is laughable. I don&#039;t even remember when I worked that little. A slow week is 50+ and a busy is 60+ sometimes even higher. I know pastors in my association that never take a day off and are at every bedside for the smallest of things. Most pastors are expected to visit their members on a regular basis, not yearly. Admittedly, my hand is connected to everything in the church and I&#039;m already involved everything. 

Furthermore, I am troubled by the breakdown you had of the pastors work week that didn&#039;t include personal biblical studies, prayer, or continued studies. When is the pastor supposed to do that? On their own time? Would it be fine if a pastor didn&#039;t do those thing? You can&#039;t expect a pastor to work 8 hrs at the church and then fail to count extra studies. And also, what about the 12+ hr work day on Sunday preaching, teaching, greeting, visiting, etc? 

Aubrey Malphurs wrote a piece last year on the 13 Deadly Sins of a Dying Church. And the worst problem he says, from his perspective as a church consultant, is the church that expects the senior pastor to visit ever member and keep them happy. It&#039;s a narcissistic disease.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can understand and appreciate your vantage point. However, I still side with Dr. Rainer. Frankly a 45 hour work week is laughable. I don&#8217;t even remember when I worked that little. A slow week is 50+ and a busy is 60+ sometimes even higher. I know pastors in my association that never take a day off and are at every bedside for the smallest of things. Most pastors are expected to visit their members on a regular basis, not yearly. Admittedly, my hand is connected to everything in the church and I&#8217;m already involved everything. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I am troubled by the breakdown you had of the pastors work week that didn&#8217;t include personal biblical studies, prayer, or continued studies. When is the pastor supposed to do that? On their own time? Would it be fine if a pastor didn&#8217;t do those thing? You can&#8217;t expect a pastor to work 8 hrs at the church and then fail to count extra studies. And also, what about the 12+ hr work day on Sunday preaching, teaching, greeting, visiting, etc? </p>
<p>Aubrey Malphurs wrote a piece last year on the 13 Deadly Sins of a Dying Church. And the worst problem he says, from his perspective as a church consultant, is the church that expects the senior pastor to visit ever member and keep them happy. It&#8217;s a narcissistic disease.</p>
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		<title>By: God &#38; Culture</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49531</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[God &#38; Culture]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 22:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Dr. Murray. As a bi-vocational pastor this is both convicting and edifying. Reminds me of John Piper&#039;s recent adage: &#039;One of the great uses of Twitter and Facebook will be to prove at the Last Day that prayerlessness was not from lack of time.&#039; Quite possibly, as pastors, we are frittering away time on social media and other distractions that ought properly to be directed to face to face time with our people. I plead guilty and am thankful for this godly spur (Hebrews 10:24) to do good in this area in the future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Dr. Murray. As a bi-vocational pastor this is both convicting and edifying. Reminds me of John Piper&#8217;s recent adage: &#8216;One of the great uses of Twitter and Facebook will be to prove at the Last Day that prayerlessness was not from lack of time.&#8217; Quite possibly, as pastors, we are frittering away time on social media and other distractions that ought properly to be directed to face to face time with our people. I plead guilty and am thankful for this godly spur (Hebrews 10:24) to do good in this area in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks! I too published a rejoinder to the article on my blog. I did, really, just minimal research, to be able to disprove that &quot;pastoral visitation&quot; is a modern innovation. James taught it. Paul did it. Jesus said it was one of the most evident signs of righteousness (Sheep and Goats). Ignatius, Justin Martyr, promoted it, to name a few. The Puritans, Spurgeon, etc., etc.

I too have enjoyed his articles, and like you, I wondered if it was serious. I kept waiting for a &quot;Hah, just kidding!&quot; But no. Totally unironic.

Blessings!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! I too published a rejoinder to the article on my blog. I did, really, just minimal research, to be able to disprove that &#8220;pastoral visitation&#8221; is a modern innovation. James taught it. Paul did it. Jesus said it was one of the most evident signs of righteousness (Sheep and Goats). Ignatius, Justin Martyr, promoted it, to name a few. The Puritans, Spurgeon, etc., etc.</p>
<p>I too have enjoyed his articles, and like you, I wondered if it was serious. I kept waiting for a &#8220;Hah, just kidding!&#8221; But no. Totally unironic.</p>
<p>Blessings!</p>
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		<title>By: K McCaulley</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[K McCaulley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 17:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for replying.  I will give your other post a read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for replying.  I will give your other post a read.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer G</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jennifer G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess I don&#039;t understand the model of ministry that Dr. Rainer is describing. In our Reformed Baptist Church, we have regular pastoral oversight where the pastor meets with the member to discuss that member&#039;s spiritual health, marriage, family, questions, issues with other members, church concerns, whatever. Is that what people mean by visitation? Our do y&#039;all mean just &quot;getting to know you&quot; sort of visitation?

Because oversight is just part of a biblical church, right? So that the pastors can shepherd the souls the flock for which they will give an account. Then they know how to pray, counsel, and preach to their assembly of believers. In that oversight, which happens about once a year for our church, the pastor offers very little of his own personal life, other than to help the member.

But visitation in the sense of getting to know one another, praying for each other, sharing lives...well EVERY member should be doing that with every other member. In that sort of visiting, both parties share their lives, and the pastor is not exempt! Though my husband isn&#039;t a pastor, we know all the members of our church (about 150, plus their children) and most of them, we know pretty well. We have them in our home for the Lord&#039;s Day, we have never had a holiday without at least one family from church joining us, we have people frequently in our guest room, we rarely leave church less than an hour after the end of the service or prayer meeting...because we are supposed to minister to one another!  Certainly no one thinks the pastor is the only church member who is supposed to get to know people! If that&#039;s the case, it&#039;s no wonder there is little fellowship in many churches, and no wonder Dr. Rainer felt a need to write about it. I wonder if that&#039;s the type of visitation he had in mind, a social &quot;checking in&quot; in place of relationships within the church, and that &quot;one anothering&quot; being assigned to a pastor and no one else.

If proper oversight is happening, then social fellowship visits should be *every* member&#039;s responsibility and privilege. If deliberate oversight isn&#039;t happening, then I don&#039;t know how the church even functions, because the pastors have to know the people in order to preach, pray, and serve them. Pastors oversee, but EVERYONE fellowships and ministers.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I don&#8217;t understand the model of ministry that Dr. Rainer is describing. In our Reformed Baptist Church, we have regular pastoral oversight where the pastor meets with the member to discuss that member&#8217;s spiritual health, marriage, family, questions, issues with other members, church concerns, whatever. Is that what people mean by visitation? Our do y&#8217;all mean just &#8220;getting to know you&#8221; sort of visitation?</p>
<p>Because oversight is just part of a biblical church, right? So that the pastors can shepherd the souls the flock for which they will give an account. Then they know how to pray, counsel, and preach to their assembly of believers. In that oversight, which happens about once a year for our church, the pastor offers very little of his own personal life, other than to help the member.</p>
<p>But visitation in the sense of getting to know one another, praying for each other, sharing lives&#8230;well EVERY member should be doing that with every other member. In that sort of visiting, both parties share their lives, and the pastor is not exempt! Though my husband isn&#8217;t a pastor, we know all the members of our church (about 150, plus their children) and most of them, we know pretty well. We have them in our home for the Lord&#8217;s Day, we have never had a holiday without at least one family from church joining us, we have people frequently in our guest room, we rarely leave church less than an hour after the end of the service or prayer meeting&#8230;because we are supposed to minister to one another!  Certainly no one thinks the pastor is the only church member who is supposed to get to know people! If that&#8217;s the case, it&#8217;s no wonder there is little fellowship in many churches, and no wonder Dr. Rainer felt a need to write about it. I wonder if that&#8217;s the type of visitation he had in mind, a social &#8220;checking in&#8221; in place of relationships within the church, and that &#8220;one anothering&#8221; being assigned to a pastor and no one else.</p>
<p>If proper oversight is happening, then social fellowship visits should be *every* member&#8217;s responsibility and privilege. If deliberate oversight isn&#8217;t happening, then I don&#8217;t know how the church even functions, because the pastors have to know the people in order to preach, pray, and serve them. Pastors oversee, but EVERYONE fellowships and ministers.</p>
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		<title>By: David Murray</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Drew, I&#039;m sure there are SBC factors that contribute to Thom&#039;s article, but it would be wiser to specify these and address these rather than write so generally in a way that can easily be misunderstood and applied in totally different scenarios. 

I agree with you about the Baxter model. We need to adapt it to today but there are timeless principles in it. I think your visitation rate is appropriate and wise in a congregation of that size. 

Regarding prayer, I&#039;ve tried a few approaches:

1. A special time on Saturday evening (after sermon prep was complete) when I would pray for 20-25 families/households at a time. In my last congregation that meant I prayer for the whole congregation every 5 weeks.

2. I pray for five families/households a day as part of my normal prayer time.

3. I try to pray for households as I drive past them in my community. 

I&#039;ve come to prefer #2 over #1 and do try to do #3 in addition although it means praying for some more than others as some people live nearer me than others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drew, I&#8217;m sure there are SBC factors that contribute to Thom&#8217;s article, but it would be wiser to specify these and address these rather than write so generally in a way that can easily be misunderstood and applied in totally different scenarios. </p>
<p>I agree with you about the Baxter model. We need to adapt it to today but there are timeless principles in it. I think your visitation rate is appropriate and wise in a congregation of that size. </p>
<p>Regarding prayer, I&#8217;ve tried a few approaches:</p>
<p>1. A special time on Saturday evening (after sermon prep was complete) when I would pray for 20-25 families/households at a time. In my last congregation that meant I prayer for the whole congregation every 5 weeks.</p>
<p>2. I pray for five families/households a day as part of my normal prayer time.</p>
<p>3. I try to pray for households as I drive past them in my community. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve come to prefer #2 over #1 and do try to do #3 in addition although it means praying for some more than others as some people live nearer me than others.</p>
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		<title>By: David Murray</title>
		<link>https://headhearthand.org/blog/2016/09/05/pastoral-visitation-a-sign-of-sickness-and-a-step-towards-death/#comment-49526</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Murray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2016 16:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://headhearthand.org/?p=24620#comment-49526</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re right. One of his biographers notes that one of the reasons that Edwards lost the affection and attachment of his flock was that he refused to visit his congregation as was the norm in his day. He visited the sick and elderly and he invited people with problems to contact him and visit him at his home. But he did not do &quot;ordinary&quot; pastoral visitation, and this was one of the factors that blew up his ministry in the mix of other problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right. One of his biographers notes that one of the reasons that Edwards lost the affection and attachment of his flock was that he refused to visit his congregation as was the norm in his day. He visited the sick and elderly and he invited people with problems to contact him and visit him at his home. But he did not do &#8220;ordinary&#8221; pastoral visitation, and this was one of the factors that blew up his ministry in the mix of other problems.</p>
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