I’m really encouraged by and mostly positive about the New Calvinist movement. I don’t think I’ve ever written anything critical about it. In fact I’ve learned much from its preachers and bloggers. I want to be an encourager rather than a critic. But, I’m increasingly concerned about the increasing promotion of “Gospel Rap” or “Holy Hip Hop” in New Calvinist circles, even by men whom I admire and esteem very highly in the Lord.
I understand the motive - usually the very commendable desire to reach the lost in the inner cities. I’m definitely not saying that Christian rappers and their supporters are unconverted - simply, though seriously, mistaken. And I do accept that, in God’s mercy and grace, souls have been saved through this medium. At the Desiring God Pastors Conference this year, I sat beside three earnest young men of varied racial backgrounds. They told me they were “Rapper Pastors.” Having never heard the term before, I asked them to explain. They told me that they were working among the gangs of Chicago, bringing the Gospel to young men on the streets by rapping the Gospel to them. “Why rap?” I asked. They replied that this was the only medium that these gangs understood, having also received any education they had through this medium. One of them showed me impressive lyrics based on that day’s conference address that he had tapped out on his iPhone. He was going to “rap” this and other conference addresses to his Chicago house-church and to the young men on the streets of Chicago. Stepping-stone evangelism?As we talked, I was deeply humbled and challenged by their sincerity, courage, and zeal. And, though I admit I still felt uncomfortable about their evangelistic method, I could understand the plausibility of their argument. After all, that’s how they heard the Gospel first. Now, having used that as a stepping-stone, they were listening to hour-long, in-depth Bible teaching. But a debatable argument for stepping-stone evangelism among the gangs of Chicago is quite different from mature Christians from completely different cultures promoting it, attending “Holy Hip-Hop” concerts and dances, having performances in churches, etc. On the basis of Exodus 20:7 (see Westminster Larger Catechism exposition of the third commandment, or Calvin’s for that matter) and the general biblical principle of “fruits reveal roots” (e.g. Matthew 7:16-20), I have one question that summarizes my concerns: Are the origins, associations, and present fruits of a musical genre or sub-culture to be seriously considered when deciding whether to incorporate it into the public worship of God? I presume most Christians will answer yes to that carefully-framed question (notice my emphasis on public worship). Yet most Christians have little idea about the origins, associations, and present fruits of Hip-Hop culture. They see a sanitized version of it on church stages, but know next to nothing about how it began, what it is associated with, and do not have to live with the brutal, terrifying, blood-soaked, and tear-stained fruits of it in the inner cities day after day, and night after night. Please don’t respond to this article until you have done a bit of research into this. Redeeming the culture?
But can’t we redeem it for the Lord? Can’t we take the beat, the clothes, the postures, the culture, and simply change the words from violent, rebellious, proud, disrespectful, vain, self-worshiping, woman-hating, rape-glorifying, crude, perverse, and sex-obsessed to Christ-like and cross-centered preaching and/or worshipping? (It’s difficult to know if “Holy Hip Hop” is preaching or praise. I’m assuming that as most - even its supporters - find it almost impossible to join in with it and “sing” along with it, it is more a form of preaching than praise). The Church is always at risk of slipping slowly and imperceptibly away from the “foolishness of preaching” to the seemingly reasonable and persuasive “wisdom of this world.” In ancient culture, worldly wisdom said to Gospel preachers, “Use philosophy!” or “Use miracles!” but Paul stuck by the seemingly foolish method of a single, unaccompanied human voice authoritatively declaring the Truth. He did not use the common Greek Socratic method or the accepted Jewish Rabbinic model. He used God’s method and model of preaching - culturally unacceptable then as now. Through the years, the Church has been continually tempted to use various cultural fads and trends to reach the lost - Christian punk rock, Christian glam rock, Christian death metal - usually with little lasting fruit. The temptations take different forms in different cultures, but God has designed and designated preaching to be the universal means of gathering in His elect, no matter what culture or age we live in. Challenging questions
Am I just expressing a cultural preference? Am I just being a traditionalist or a legalist? Am I making my sometimes-faulty conscience a rule for others? Am I threatening the precious gift of Christian liberty? I have to answer such challenging questions honestly and prayerfully when I write something like this. And I continue to examine my motives and aims. But may I not also challenge highly esteemed brothers in the Lord to ask themselves a few questions: Is your Christ-like longing for the salvation of lost souls in our inner cities, and maybe your personal friendships with some Christian rappers, hindering you from taking a sharp biblical lens to Hip-Hop and a consistent biblical approach to the public worship of God? Have you perhaps at times mistaken the incredibly powerful effects of music and rhythm upon the human spirit for the powerful effects of the Holy Spirit? Is “Holy Hip Hop” leading Christians and non-Christians away from unholy Hip Hop and its culture or keeping them in it, and maybe even leading outsiders into it? Is there ever a line to be drawn where we say: this culture is so corrupted that separation rather than transformation may be the right Christian response? Are you at risk of unintentionally undermining the biblical, reformed, and God-glorifying dependence on plain preaching to save all kinds of souls, whatever the color of their skin? If the message really is more important and powerful than the music, would removing the music and leaving the bare words excite the same interest and produce the same effect? Why is it mainly white churches that are providing a platform for this, and why are so many African American churches so reluctant to welcome a genre of music that has done so much to destroy their communities and devastate young lives? Public promotion
I’ve sent versions of this article to some of the leaders in the New Calvinist movement and received helpful and challenging criticisms. In response, I’ve edited and re-drafted this post over many, many hours in an attempt to present this as peaceably and respectfully as possible. I trust you will allow me the right to express these worries in this way, and also that you will respond in a similar spirit. If the unqualified promotion of “Holy Hip Hop” had not become so public and prevalent over recent days and weeks, I would probably have tried to conduct a more private discussion about my concerns. Maybe the promoters of “Holy Hip Hop” might have been wiser to consult more widely and seriously dialogue with other Christians outside their circles before going so increasingly public with their fairly unquestioning support of what they must know will divide the reformed movement. Although I now feel conscience-bound to put this into the public domain, I do continue to welcome dialogue, both public and private. I’m hopeful that the New Calvinist movement is now old and mature enough to seriously and prayerfully consider some concerns from other Christians outside their inner circles, from those who love them, appreciate them, and sincerely desire their long-term spiritual prosperity. I hate controversy and I dread the response to this. I’m sure some people much cleverer than me will be able to pick some holes in some of my reasoning. (I’m willing to be corrected.) However, once the initial reaction has died down, I do hope that there will be some serious consideration of my overall appeal, some prayerful soul-searching, and some courageous gospel-powered reformation of lives and churches. I’ll remove any comments that personalize this against named individuals or use this as an excuse to jump all over New Calvinism.
*Update 1: Thanks for your responses. Here’s my follow-up post.
so is this about public worship only? or about the genre in general?
I am not sure if I quite agree with you on this one Dr. Murray, however I do believe that this is a worthy conversation to be having. If you go to the 9marks (www.9marks.org) website their is an interview/discussion about Christian rap with Dr. Mark Dever and others to which it is worthy of listening. I think a helpful distinction that needs to be made is to ask are these men who rap and are called to the office of pastor/elder or to do exercise their rap skills in their ministry of Word and Sacrament. Using rap music as a form of outreach or enjoyment amoung Christians seems biblically acceptable, but using rap music in the corporate gathering of the Church seems entirely innappropiate given the emphesis is on corporate singling. That being sad, a blind acceptance or rejection of hip-hope (or anything for that matter) must be avoided by Christians. And a final side side note… hip-hop’s beginnings (as recorded by the classic artists) were not monolythic and did speak against both external and internal problems in the american african communities. And to boot, much of American early hip-hop music borrowed heavily from international influences which had a different beginning.
Dear brother, Thanks for this penetrating read.
Dr. Murray,I’m not sure where I stand on this. I have only been exposed to one artist of this genre, and though the style is not what I prefer, the message seems sound.I really appreciate your blog entry, however, and I think you presented your thoughts in a truly humble, and God honoring way. You have helped me to be more objective in considering the value of such a medium.May God bless you. Your messages have certainly been a blessing to me.
This is an intriguing post. I am a graduate of Bob Jones University; so, you know where my upbringing and roots are from; however, I have come to a point where I disagree with the musical stance taught there, while at the same time very much appreciate the education and theological “groundedness” that I received.I personally don’t say that something is sinful simply because a sinner (or multiple sinful people) came up with it. This may seem like a very simplistic argument (and I agree that it is), but if we reject something because sinners came up with it, then we’d have to reject everything. The question now goes to “how sinful” must the original audience be in order for me to accept it as true. But, I don’t think that’s the right question to ask. I would go back to Paul where he says that we are to glorify God in everything we do - whether it’s eating, drinking, spending time with your wife, playing with your children, etc. So, the real question is, “Can I glorify God in all of this?”Now, this is where it gets difficult (and we’re all in need of much prayer on this). I concur that there are passages in Scripture that indicate that the way a woman dressed (shaved head, a lot of jewelry) are commented on by Paul. He clearly showed that externals do matter. Women shouldn’t look like prostitutes. The Bible also talks about certain external matters that we should play close attention to given the culture one is in - circumcision for Timothy or people eating food offered to idols. Personally I find this very confusing. In one sense, I can see where listening to “Christian Hip-Hop” may not be beneficial. But, in another sense, I could say that secular classical music could be ungodly, too - depending on the musician who wrote it. I can also see where Christian hip-hop can be very beneficial. One of my favorite songs is, “Don’t Waste Your Life” by Lecrae. The words and the intensity of the music stir me up to want to fight for righteousness.* My conundrum intensifies, though, when I realize that there are many adulterers who wear suits and ties, too. Similar sins can be found in a gang or a corner office. As a side note, compare this with acting. Think about Shakespeare? Shakespeare “in his own day ridiculed the Puritans, and [his] Globe Theater was demolished by the Puritans in 1644? Isn’t it a strange irony how three centuries can turn worldliness into ‘a delightful comedy’” (http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/evangelist-bill-piper…. From a biblical perspective, I can see four things clearly: 1) All things must be done for God’s glory, 2) We must be careful to shine the light of Christ clearly in this world, 3) Sometimes we can engage culture with the means of current cultural mediums (freedom to eat meat offered to idols, quoting poets of the day), and sometimes we shouldn’t (the “hair issue” that Paul brings up), 4) We need godly discernment. To say that hip-hop is absolutely wrong all the time, I think, is too cut and dry and doesn’t leave a place for discernment. But, I do believe that there could be places where it’s not wise, biblical and godly.Anymore help in addressing this topic would be appreciated.*Some may say that the “feeling” I have while listening to “Don’t Waste Your Life” is just a feeling; therefore, I can’t use that as an argument to say that the song is good. However, I will respond that one can’t say the “feeling” is an argument that it’s bad either. Also, I need to train my feelings. If I can train my feelings to be excited about righteousness, then I want to train them in that direction. Also, biblically speaking, music is meant to soothe the soul and to help people see the weightiness of God. There’s great excitement that comes along with music. God created emotions and excitement, and if we can have music that’s supposed to get soldiers ready for battle, then we should have music that excite Christians to get ready for REAL battle.
The Buddhists are also using Hip-Hop the spread their message. See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js7iSL7uu4o
@Timothy, Cromwell’s soldiers used to sing Psalms before the battles… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303954/Olivers-lost-army-Buried-side...
Helpful perspective. Thanks. I a similar appreciation for the motivation but concern with the form itself last year when 9Marks did an interview on the subject:http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-music/can-rap-be-chri...
the problem with the association argument is that rap and hip-hop have been around for such a short time that it’s hard to envision what it’s long-term associations might be. yes, they’ve been largely negative up till now, but 100 years from now it’s associations might be very different than what the first few decade currently indicate, especially if every other rap song you hear is a christian one.
Thank you for your prayerful, contemplative thoughts on these methods Dr. Rev. Murray. They are deeply appreciated and needed. God Bless!
I actually think Hip-hop is the best music medium to preach deep truth with. Country Gospel was never going to do it.
Reference, solemnity are important in a worship service, but sometimes when I see the enthusiasim of other Christians, I at times wonder if our style of worship is more a Culture and if that Culture stifles us in our worship service and in… our serving Christ. Not saying I want to see people dancing in during the service or rapping, but when I see others (from outside our conservative circles)the level of their excitement and sincerity in worshipping, serving Christ and reaching out to others makes me feel guilty. Rather then question their methods (and I am not comfortable with much of them) maybe the questions should be more directed at us. Why don’t we have that visible level of excitment and energy? We ought to.
thank you for sharing these challenging questions…I share your concern…
The idea that hip hop may be “too corrupted” (and should be avoided) presupposes that there can be a genre of art that is “without” corruption. But, even the purest human voice can be a clanging cymbal in God’s ears. You are simply revealing your cultural bias. This article would not have been written (nor conceived of) by someone who actually enjoys hip hop and rap.
There’s no such thing as secular music…only secular content and secular uses. Music, in and of itself, is neutral. What determines its label of godly or secular is what is added TO the music (content), and in what manner the music is used. The reverse is also true. There is no such as Christian music. What makes it “Christian” and edifying and God-honoring is the content applied to it and the way it is used.
Just because there is no uncorrupted genre doesn’t then mean that every genre is acceptable. Just because a genre is enjoyable doesn’t mean it is okay. We need to be more discerning then that. But we must also be careful not to turn our religious practices/beliefs into a culture and end up removing the religion from it.
Arguing against hip hop on the basis of it’s origin is like arguing against Facebook because of its origin. Did Facebook have questionable origins? Yes. But, can you present a holy message on it? Yes. Hip hop is a medium, a method, a tool. It is simply music. Can music be used to spread a message. Absolutely! The real question should always be - what message is being sent to me. Is this the true gospel? Or is it a false gospel? Is it telling me to work my way to heaven or am I being told of Jesus and him crucified? I have yet to hear a sound argument against a genre of music. It’s kind of like arguing against a type of math. Don’t do subtraction, it’s always taking away things and never adding to it. I don’t listen to much hip hop, but I use the same logic when applying it to any genre of music - Country, Rock, Pop or classical. Why should we single out hip hop? Much love to you for presenting something to make us think though!
I am glad you brought such a genuine concern for Biblical public worship into the open. It has been my experience that when speaking against “holy hip hop”, the people who speak for it generally have faulty reasoning. Your post is well said! Thanks.
Howie, that’s an easy accusation to make, but can you please explain how/why our reasoning is faulty? How can music, in and of itself, be bad? Is it not the content and use that determines what it is? There seems to be a lot of opinion on this topic, but no Scriptural basis for the conclusion that a music style is bad. Seems Romans 14 is applicable here (updated to apply to musical preference):As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may listen to hymns AND Christian hip-hop, while the weak person listens only to hymns. Let not the one who listens to the hip-hop despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who listens, for God has welcomed him…one man regards hymns over hip-hop, another regards them both alike. Let each be convinced in his own mind.The point is simple. It’s ok to have an opinion and preference and even a personal conviction about something like music styles, but the problem arises when one attempts to pass judgment on those who see nothing wrong with a particular style.
I think that I see this topic from an interesting perspective. Growing up everyone around me was into the christian death metal movement. I heard some christian rap and clung to it rather than the violence of death metal. I was never into secular rap and it’s sin soaked lyrics were repulsive to me, all I’ve known of rap is that which preaches the gospel. There has been fruit from this music for myself and for other people around me. The example that some of these artists portray is above reproach. Yes there are those within the culture that water down the message just to get the crowds out. On a whole I would go so far as to say that this music has been more beneficial than the praise band movement. I do not base my salvation on things learned from these rappers, but when they preach truth that I don’t hear in churches it drives me to study the Bible deeper.
I don’t think I quite understand the concern — is it really the medium itself, or how the medium is used publicly by certain churches and/or organizations?I think you ask some very good questions, and I think they are ones that need to be asked….. about everything. IOW, I do not see these questions pertaining solely to holy hip-hop. Any type of music — even hymns and “new” hymns — need these questions asked. So to frame this in the context of some kind of uniqueness to hip-hop, to me, seems to somewhat point the finger at hip-hop at the expense of everything else.I do think the origins, associations, fruit, etc. need to be weighed. As to origins, the earliest hip-hop barely resembles what we have today. It was light, fun, and mostly innocent (relatively) lyrics. In the late 80′s and early 90′s, there seemed to be a sharp turn toward the “gangsta” side of hip-hop — the drugs, money, women, violence, etc. Unfortunately, that’s probably the lingering view that the average person has of hip-hop.But, AFAIK, many genres of music have had ebbs and flows in its perception. Jazz, R&B, Rock (!), even Classical and Celtic music have had their denouncers for various origin/association/fruit reasons. My opinion is, most genres can be redeemed. I’ve seen quite a few people who have never listened to hip-hop — even older (and elderly) Christians — hear some of these lyrics and praise God for it. That doesn’t mean their going to go pop it in their CD player in the car and change their tastes, but it does mean they can appreciate the lyrics and the venue.Good holy hip-hop as a genre, however, I actually find more edifying than most contemporary Christian music. Shai Linne, Stephen the Levite, Lecrae, etc. — these guys put more thought and doctrine into their lyrics than the feel-good gibberish found in CCM. I’ve actually learned from their lyrics and meditated on their themes. That can only be good. In fact, many Psalms were written in such a way to make for easy memorization — so the idea of packaging doctrine in such a way is hardly new or foreign.As for public worship, there’s always a fine line there. For me, beats and rhythms are more of a concern, and that’s true for any genre. Hip-hop is not “congregational” in the sense that it is built for congregational singing (except maybe a hook). So, in that sense, yes, maybe it’s more preacher-ish than praise-ish. But then again, if Scripture is read at a public service by a pastor with the intention of the congregation listening, how is that different? The point is, it’s edifying. Now, if you’re paying more attention to the groove than the lyrics, then obviously you’ll get nothing out of it — but that’s true even of hymns; sometimes I find myself more moved my the melody of “It is Well” or the bagpipes of “Amazing Grace” than the lyrics. So then you open the can of worms of performance vs. congregational worship. If you have a person singing a hymn as a solo, is that a performance, or is it meant to be listened to and drunk in by the congregation, and that edification is itself worship? Hip-hop lends itself to being able to squeeze more words and ideas into a song than other genres, to be sure. But no form of music is meant to replace preaching so in that sense, all genres are “stepping stones.” You can’t live on a diet of hymns, either. I just don’t think that the concern that people will only listen to the hip-hop and not seek biblical preaching is a valid one.Anyway, holy hip-hop, IMO, is great. For those who enjoy the medium, it can be edifying, doctrinally sound, and moving. And it lets those who actually DO the hip-hop be creative. Hip-hop lyrics, at its core, is poetry. Strip away the beat, and many of them read like psalms. Let these guys use their gifts.BTW, while I think there is some truth that churches and orgs use hip-hop to reach the inner city, I think that’s a narrow view. Hip-hop permeates all of society. More white kids in the suburbs listen to hip-hop then black kids in the inner city. Who do you think buys the albums? It’s a generational and cultural thing and holy hip-hop reaches that generation across a multitude of racial, economic, and cultural backgrounds.Anyway, good article, and I’m glad you bring it up. I think there’s some presuppositions in there that perhaps you aren’t seeing, but I’m glad you’re willing to receive critical feedback. God bless you for that!In Christ,Tom
If content is the issue, then Cain’s sacrifice should have been acceptable. Sure, the correct content must be there but it is deeper then that. It is a heart question, and, is it in keeping with God’s will for that person. I would submit that a person living according to God’s will for them will do things that would make not just the world wonder at times, but also those of us in conservative circles. God works in mysterious ways (maybe even hip hop), his wonders to perform. His ways are not our ways.
Most of our glorious holy hymns were originally European drinking songs. The “gospel rap” genre might not be my thing (on a personal preference level) but if we are going to eliminate anything that smacks of secular culture we’ll be left with singing Psalms.
@Brian, I’m sorry, that passage in Romans 14 is not intended to validate the personal opinions that each person may have. It main teach is that we should be loving (and not despise) the ones that understand differently than we do one in SOME matters (like food, and, maybe, music too) even if we are RIGHT and they are WRONG (like in the food issue).Having said that, here is my opinion:For me, the problem is not related to preference of genres, music backgrounds, etc… The main problem with hip-hop (and many other rhythms) is that it is not reverent nor solemn.Brothers, that presence of God is something very very very serious. I believe that we have enough examples in the Bible that teaches us that in presence of God we should be reverent and not jump, scream and laugh. Here a some passages…(Exodus 3:5) God ordained Moses to take off his shoes, because he was in the presence of God.(Isaiah 6) In the presence of God, the seraphim covered their face and feet, and Isaiah though he was lost.(Apocalypse 1:17) John fell like death.
I understand your concerns, but a similar warning could be made about any genre of music used in praise or worship. The music industry and culture in general has many horrible aspects to it.If you listen to rap enough, you develop an ear for it and are able to pick out the words quite easily. There a Christian rock songs where I can’t understand some of the words either if I can hear them over the guitars.I TOTALLY AGREE with not using rap as a bait and switch evangelism method.
You know, David, I appreciate how carefully you’ve been thinking through this. Awhile back, I interviewed Stephen the Levite and I asked him about this question. It was actually the first thing I asked him in my interview.http://www.bringthebooks.org/2010/08/unprofessional-interview-stephen-levite….I don’t want to speak on Stephen’s behalf, but for my own part, I am excited to see the many different forms in which the church is expressing worship and glory unto God. The variety, to my mind, is very healthy and contributes to the church as a body, as opposed to a monad.
With the integration of various popular cultural “methods” into our public worship, I wonder if AW Tozer has hit the nail on the head. I’m not seeking hasty responses…just tossing up here for reflection:”Those Christians who belong to the evangelical wing of the church (which I firmly believe is the only one that even approximates New Testament Christianity) have over the last half-century shown an increasing impatience with things invisible and eternal and have demanded and got a host of things visible and temporal to satisfy their fleshly appetites. Without Biblical authority, or any other right under the sun, carnal religious leaders have introduced a host of attractions that serve no purpose except to provide entertainment for the retarded saints.It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God’s professed children are bored with Him, for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments.This has influenced the whole pattern of church life, and even brought into being a new type of church architecture, designed to house the golden calf.So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped-candy technique has been so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of the teachings of Christ and His apostles.Any objection to the carryings on of our present golden-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, “But we are winning them!” And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world’s treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no.We are paying a frightful price for our religious boredom. And that at the moment of the world’s mortal peril.”
This is an incredible topic. Someone please shoot me down if you don’t agree with me. I think the issue here does involve race. When i first started learning about the Reformed faith I learned that in the Reformed Faith there was a consciousness of race and of nationality. I remember reading about the great Zwingli and the book stated that Swiss like British people were great lovers of freedom and would do anything to live as freeman. Also another book that I read stated that The French, British peoples, and Germans (Swiss Dutch included) had contributed to the Reformed faith.So after doing all this reading I too stared thinking in these terms. I had never done that before. I just thought man were man. Well I started fancying myself as a Swiss or a British person although I am as non-European as they come. I am Afro-Caribbean. I am Haitian.Well I come from a truly glorious race of man. We were the first slaves nation in the history of the modern world to say no to slavery (based on race alone). My ancestors fought Napoleon and won. The same Napoleon who sent shivers up all European nations spines. I have reflected a great deal on my ancestors. It is hard not to when there are statues of them all over the island in early 19th century military regalia. It takes your breath away. it is like a young American seeing a statue of the great George Washington.The interesting thing about my ancestors is the fact that I think what motivated them to undertake this most impossible task was the fact that they saw something glorious in the white European man. He ate better than they did he was cultured and incredibly civilized. I think they beheld this. But the European thought of my ancestors as no better than apes. My ancestors had no choice but to fight. They had to fight for me because I was in their body. I too am a man. Not man taken simply. Man as the Europeans had held the idea of man the humanistic idea of man with Christianity (Catholicism) overruling it. But he denied us a right which had been given to every European persons ancestor. The right to bow down before the cross. Were the Germanic tribes forced into slavery before they accepted Christ. Were the great Norsemen who butchered all of Ireland’s most holy priest forced to be chattel slaves before they bowed down to the cross.My ancestors after they had fought for and won their independence embarked upon the task of building a nation. They built a structure called the Citadel to defend the island from future attacks by the French. It cost 20,000 lives just to build the fortress. They also built palaces for our great kings. Palaces after those of the ones built in Europe. They even established a knights order. My ancestors did this for me because I like knights. They didn’t build huts to live in. Our national religion was that of the holy Catholic faith. The faith of our kings. In every city in Haiti there is a Catholic church. The traditional religion of Africa was not our religion. It is a great misconception that people have about our nation that we practiced voodoo. The filth of our people practice it just like the the worthless in Germany practiced witchcraft.Now Europeans have done a great deal of harm. Aboard a ship with the cross symbol you had people packed in like sardines living in their refuse. Aboard a christian vessel you had slaves. I am assuming prayers were made in these vessels every morning and evening. The nations that adopted the Reformed faith were also guilty of this the Dutch and British. I would have loved to have been aboard on a Lord’s Day. While women and young boys screamed at the top of our lungs young man read the Canon’s of Dort and Westminster Catechism. Priceless.The most dangerous blacks in the world and the most dangerous people in the world for that matter are the people who were subjugated by reformed countries. Reggae and rap came from people who were under Reformed countries’ domination. You have created a monster. This will teach you not to mess with the devil. This music which these blacks have created has absolutely destroyed my culture. In the end you got us now we are fit to be slaves.You mean to tell me a black man whose whole family have lived here for 400 years can only create music that makes the young women in my country want to take off their clothes and perform lewd acts.All this is to say that in a way you are right white men. The fact that blacks have created this music would signify that there is great moral problem. Would you like to re-enslave? The problem as I see it is that you have created a situation in which there is no turning back. Blacks will not and cannot forget slavery. They will get back at you and your God for what you did. Why do you think rap exists. They will come in to your pristine temples of worship and tear them down. It is too late to be friends. Like an Hebrew befriending a Canaanite. It can’t happen. Dagon will not allow it. The best thing I advise is to maintain like your Reformed ancestors the superiority of the white race. To go back from this position now would be cowardice. You had your chance with the black man and blew it. Now he hates your God with a great hatred your only response and the right response is to hate him.
Why is it mainly white churches that are providing a platform for this, and why are so many African American churches so reluctant to welcome a genre of music that has done so much to destroy their communities and devastate young lives?
Sorry for the above comment (user error:))Dr. Murray writes an absolutely excellent article. I would preface my comment by saying a) I am black and b) I was heavily involved with the hip hop culture before coming to Christ.One key issue of distinction which most people fail to realize is that rap is the music, hip hop is the culture. While a lot of outsiders just look at the music and the lyrics and say “There’s nothing that bad about it”, they neglect to understand the depth of the culture behind it.This is why his comment here is so powerful (from the article):”Why is it mainly white churches that are providing a platform for this, and why are so many African American churches so reluctant to welcome a genre of music that has done so much to destroy their communities and devastate young lives?”A keen observation lost on most.There’s also the spiritual aspect of music, especially hip hop, that does not allow for a simple change of lyrics, and “Voila”, it’s now glorifying towards God. No it is not.JPH listed a number of rap artists above (ie: Tribe, Roots, etc) and reveals his ignorance about the genre saying they while they deal with sexual content explicitly (yes, they do) they don’t “glorify criminal behavior or violence” - as if that’s the litmus test. BIG problem with this line of reasoning.I appreciate the humility that Dr. Murray approaches the topic with, and I have to agree with his premise and conclusions.
Most of the comments here in favor of Christian rap are based on a faulty assumption.Some people will object that there is nothing moral about notes and rhythms; there is nothing moral about songs. They are merely neutral objects like knives or hammers or guns. How we use them is what matters.The argument goes something like this:A gun is a neutral object. If I use that gun to shoot a deer to feed my family, I have used that neutral object in a moral way. If I use that gun to kill my neighbor, I have used that neutral object in an immoral way.A song is a neutral object. If I use that song with a text about God and his goodness, I have used that neutral object in a moral way. If I use that song with a text about sex and violence, I have used that neutral object in an immoral way.The problem with this kind of argumentation is that it relies on a significant category error. They are right to say that objects are neutral and uses of objects are moral. Anything a human being does is either moral or immoral.But here’s the important fact: a song is the product of human action! It has already entered the “use” category. Songs don’t exist in a vacuum; they are products of human communication. And any action of a human is either moral or immoral.If we deny that a human action might possibly be sinful, then we are dangerously close to the Pelagian heresy.Instead, we must judge every human action, including music produced by humans, based upon criteria outside ourselves. Particularly principles from the Word of God and comparison to God’s creation.We must evaluate the form of rap itself to see what it communicates, as I do here: http://www.religiousaffections.org/featured/can-rap-be-christian-evaluating-h...
If you believe that rap music is inconsistent with the Gospel because it cannot be separated with it’s culture and background, what would you say about Christian rock and it’s sex, drugs, and rock and roll history? It seems that the only viable musical option would be singing the Psalms.
Dr. Murray,Thank you for your post on this subject.I think this post serves as a good beginning for the Church to begin wrestling through this subject beyond emotions and preferences, and to look at it objectively. I, for one, would be grateful for any follow up insights that you gain from those on both sides of the debate. I am grateful for your service to Christ’s Church in bringing this to public debate and taking some bullets in the process.
Dr. Murray,I know almost nothing about you, so if I assume anything here that you disagree with that I should know, I apologize. Also, I really appreciate the humility you present this with. I disagree with you almost completely, and I will be direct in my critiques, but I mean no disrespect.My concerns are:1. The “roots” argument is impossible to get at, and that for a couple of reasons. First, the roots of hip hop are almost impossible to nail down. Are they in the 90′s with NWA? Do you go back to the Sugarhill Gang and the Furious Five? Or do you take it further back to Funk, Soul, and older R&B? If we go with Motown/early R&B (which is a totally reasonable line to trace, by the way, both culturally and musically), then are we saying that Aretha Franklin and the Four Tops are the unholy roots? And what about it if we go further back still to the Delta blues artists or even Negro spirituals? We’re going to have a very hard time pinning down “roots” on this matter.Second, you can make that argument with almost anything. Another commenter drew the comparison to facebook, which may be good, but the other musical example we can use is rock music’s relationship to congregational praise choruses and hymn arrangements. Now this is where you may well be the type who says the exact same thing about choruses, but why not go a step further and say no Christian can listen to any rock or rock inspired music? After all, “rock ‘n’ roll” is the thing that follows “sex, drugs, and…” in the expression, isn’t it? The roots argument is really difficult.All that said, there is no better counter to the roots argument than Paul’s argument in 1 Cor. 8 & 10. If sin-saturated roots was the whole issue, then Paul would most certainly denounce every instance of eating meat sacrificed to idols, right? What has more sinful roots than outright idol worship? But since Paul knows that those idols are fake, he says that eating meat sacrificed to them is fine as long as there is no conscience issue for weaker brothers. And that is what we should land on, which I’ll mention more at the bottom.2. It is true that hip hop does not lend well to congregational singing and I am no proponent of it for that purpose. If that is your whole point, then I suggest this post could be much shorter, simpler, and more arguable. But hip hop in fact does lend remarkably well to expressing God-centered poetry in a memorable way, doesn’t it? How easy would it be for someone to memorize many of the songs on 116 Clique’s Thirteen Letters, an album of 13 hip hop songs that walk through each of Paul’s letters by summarizing their content in the form of hip hop songs. Hip hop lends especially well to this not only because of the emphasis on rhyme, but because of the emphasis on speed and rhythm in delivery, which means you end up having to write lots of words in a single song. Space constraints that exist to tease out points in other forms of music are not there in hip hop. You can say a lot, you can say it well, and you can say it memorably. What’s wrong with that?3. Are you really trying to say that songs don’t preach? Try telling the Wesley’s that. Obviously if that is the only preaching that Christian rappers are doing, we might have a problem. But I’d say it’s unlikely that this is the case. You may have misunderstood your brothers, or else these guys might have been exceptions to the rule. But my experience with this type of ministry (as a white kid from Orange County, it’s normally been with rock bands, not hip hop artists, but it’s the same idea) is that the musician performs, but he or someone else follows it with a regular preached sermon. I’d be shocked if it was exclusive, and again, if it was, I think your post applies to a considerable minority of that crowd.4. Is preaching God’s only prescribed method for reaching sinners? That’s an interesting thought, and one that I haven’t spent enough real time thinking about. But to your point, what comes to mind is the connection of miracles to preaching in Acts (e..g Peter, John, and the beggar at the temple in Acts 3) and Paul’s appropriation of pagan philosophers in a few places, including Acts 17:28. Does that have any bearing on this discussion?5. Has there really been “little lasting fruit” in the use of “fad” evangelism? One wonders how you define the words “little”, “lasting”, and “fruit”. In backwards order, do you consider the salvation of sinners to be “fruit”? Do you consider “eternity” a long enough time to be “lasting”? And have you in fact researched the numbers on these sorts of things as to whether there has been much or “little”? I’m actually curious about this point. The only way I could see it not being “lasting” is that most of these types of musicians don’t last that long. But then, punk rock, glam rock, and death metal have not been lasting genres (especially outside of their subcultures), so why should we expect the Christian versions to last?Look, I don’t think Christian glam rock was ever the best idea for evangelism. But neither do I think it was either sinful or worthless.6. You ask this question: “Have you perhaps at times mistaken the incredibly powerful effects of music and rhythm upon the human spirit for the powerful effects of the Holy Spirit?” I suspect that many have done so.The problem is that all music, and even a cappella singing, sets a mood. This is inescapable. An organ and a congregation, an acoustic guitar and a single singer leading a congregation, a rock band, and a hip hop artist all set musical moods, and quite different ones at that. The question to ask is: is this musical mood permissible for the setting it is in? And this is where I think that the ever-present call to reverence, while it has its place, is simply not enough. What kind of mood do you think the Psalmist was calling for when he wrote Psalm 150 for congregational singing? Tambourines and dancing don’t point to quiet reverence of the holy God- they point to expressive, emotion-filled joy. And that’s because God created music to be emotional, just as He created emotions themselves, just as He created rationality. We ought to give each its place. If much of modern praise music rejects deep thoughtfulness, so much Reformed traditionalism rejects deep and overflowing emotional expressiveness. But they are both biblical.Ultimately, I think the best argument you could make here is a “weaker brother” one. It may really be the case that hip hop is just too reminiscent of a past life for some who came to Christ out of that kind of culture. Hip hop culture on the whole is unquestionably loaded with egregious, outspoken sin. Christians should take seriously 1 Cor. 8 & 10 and Rom. 14 and never publicly listen to hip hop again if it is going to offend their brothers’ consciences. But I’m not convinced that the association outside of the words is as strong as you make it sound. We need to be sensitive to the needs of those around us on a case-by-case basis rather than make blanket denouncements. I suggest that this is Paul’s exact attitude with meat sacrificed to idols, as mentioned above, and ultimately the more robustly biblical option.Andrew FarisSomeone Tell Me the Story
My 2 cents….Although I disagree with the premises & conclusions in this post, I affirm the need for this type of discussion (charitable, graceful in tone).A couple comments: 1) most of the “reformed” rappers do not support rap as a replacement to preaching. The interview with Dever referenced above makes that clear. 2) They also affirm that it’s difficult to incorporate this medium into worship. I think it would be good acknowledge that in this type of post.I don’t support all “holy hip hop-ers”….I’m just as discerning with these guys as I am with contemporary Christian music (or with old hymns). Seems to me it’s a much better platform to argue for discernment among all forms of media instead of trying to sideline the entire genre.Lastly, I would love to know what you think about these 2 songs, both from Voice (Curtis Allen), a pastor in a Sovereign Grace church (aka: he’s on our team
All Rap Is…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9ZOx1TezWkCommentary: I think he’s clearly acknowledging the sin in this genre. My Contribution….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw00LN1TNcoCommentary: A great follow-up to the previous song: He clearly acknowledged the sin in this genre, but should he now abandon it completely? Or should he use it (as we all use cultural medium) to point people to Christ? I gladly support his desire to use rap to point people to Christ. Seems it is entirely within the reformed understanding….all to the glory of God.
I’m not sure most people are dealing with the full content of Dr. Murray’s position. He’s arguing by way of the third commandment, as understood by the Reformed Confessional community that God not only prescribes the content of our worship, but he prescribes the method as well. I’m inclined to think that if you want to argue against Dr. Murray you’re going to need to posit some Scriptural basis for rejecting-at least in application-the regulative principle of worship. Let’s remember that Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire in the sanctuary of God and were destroyed for it. This whole discussion isn’t about winning points, it’s about how one is to approach a Holy God who is a Consuming Fire in the context of public worship.
Personally, I prefer old hymns for worship. No rap. No rock. Just voices, piano/organ and maybe some wind instruments. That being said, I enjoy some Christian rap and rock. My question is this, how do we know what music is appropriate for worship since God has a specific way in which He wants us to worship Him? Most of our hymns were written in the last 500 yrs, are they ok?
Nick S. Great comment! Thanks bro! I think it would be helpful for all of us reformed thinkers to remember in our zealousness to defend God’s holiness that He is also a God who is, in light of His holiness, ASTONISHINGLY LOVING and LAVISHLY GRACIOUS toward ungodly sinners like ALL of us in his Son Jesus Christ.. The Psalms don’t just prescribe solemnity in worship but they also prescribe shouting for joy!! Why? Because of how greatly and how kindly God has acted toward his people! This has massive implications in all of our lives and worship.
Thanks, David, I appreciate your views on these concerns.”Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement” by Dan Lucarini contains some food for thought on such matters.
Just thought I would give my experience with Christian Hip-hop.I got into it because I was sick and tired of the weak lyrically, weak musically songs that dominate Christian radio. Christian hip-hop, if you look at guys, like Lecrae, Teip Lee, Flame, Tedashii, etc., do their art in excellence for the glory of God. Their rap is far better musically and lyrically than their secular counterparts; they are men with talent who have been excellent stewards of the gifts God has given them.I like Hip-hop for the same reason I like hymns. They are songs that are full of robust theological truths that feed my soul as I sing praises to God about how great He is. No doubt there can be excess when it comes to Christians just taking something cultural and trying to sanctify it, that happens all to much and shows our desire to conform to the world rather than plead with the world to conform to the Gospel (and do it ourselves as well). Hip-hop can fall into that trap, but so can many good things in the church that are used for God’s glory. It does come down to the heart of the matter for an individual. Church for me growing up was more about an emotional experience during worship, so I hope rap doesn’t have the same effect on the younger generation, but even if it does, that doesn’t condemn the baby to the same fate as the bathwater. Since ANYTHING in Christian culture is prone to these abuses and excesses, I thank you for your article. I was ready to be offended by your portrayal of hip-hop as inherently evil but you have just genuinely pointed out the problems you see with this trend, and I think there is sober validity to what you are saying. So thank you for being willing to make your observations public in a non-condemning way. I hope people take your questions seriously.
@Daniel - I have a hard time saying that all singing and worship should be solemn. What do we say to our brothers and sisters in Africa who quite naturally clap, sway and dance when they worship? Also, what would you have said to King David when he was dancing with all his might before the Lord as they moved the Ark of the Covenant (2 Samuel 6:14)? God’s holiness is what caused the reactions you outlined in your comment and while those solemn, reverent acts were worshipful, I have not seen a requirement from God to worship him in solemnity (but I’m open to seeing chapter and verse). I agree that we ought to be reverent, but how that expresses itself is a function of culture. Anyhow, I think you are forcing a personal view of what worship should look like onto your brothers with little Biblical standing.
So all the rappers that get saved should just throw away their talent?
Thank you for this post Dr. Murray. As one who is Reformed who is just discovering lyrical theology (aka Holy Hip Hop), I found your character and care to be encouraging. It is only a matter of time that more critical voices would be heard and I’m thankful that yours has set the tone. I’m sure that you’ve read/heard this by Collin Hansen, but the interview with Shai Linne and Trip Lee linked at the bottom of this post is helpful: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2010/11/10/the-hip-hop-opportunity/
Thank you! I appreciate your boldness in discussing these concerns.
I hope this does not in any way come across disrespectful, but I am utterly unable to comprehend the reasoning presented in this article.First, am I correct in understanding the end result of your analysis means that anything that has been “contaminated” by worldly associations, becomes sin for Xns? My simple question here is what if in 10yrs a traditional styles of preaching and psalms became associated with sinful cultures. Does this suddenly mean there is no way to find redeeming value in this media? After answering that questions let me pose this thesis… it has already happened. There have been many individuals who have intentionally used the pulpit to deceive. Even among the best pastors, I theorize there is not a single one who has not improperly used the pulpit to put forth a false gospel or for ulterior motives. The simply fact is this: we live in a SINFUL world. This world is corrupt, sometimes we clearly see the sin because it apparently flies in our face in the form of lyrics that advocate immorality, sometimes it lays under the service of the thousands (if not millions) who meet every Sunday around the world to joylessly recite world out of a hymnal. These are both sin. Does this mean that there is nothing in this world that can be used to bring glory to God? Much to the contrary, I would say anything that is not sin of itself can be used to glorify God. This fundamentalist idea that we must sit in a stained glass building to avoid “sin by association” is the most detestable idea that has crept into modern Xn thought. It is essentially similar to the foolish rhetoric of the Pharisees who critiqued our Lord for associating with the sinner of this world. When God came in human form to show us how to live, not only did he not condemn such association, he sought it out. Christ intentionally tried to reach sinners on their level, sitting down and sharing a meal with them, an action most of the fundamentalist of the day found shocking. There is much more that could be said on this topic, especially in Paul’s writings. These ideas are not new. The early church also wondered how it should react to things that were not inherently sinful yet were associated with immorality.Looking specifically at the issue of rap music, there is some specific analysis that is essential. First, I completely detest the many ways this genre has been used. Many of the songs made by different rap/hip-hop artists advocate extreme immorality on a gross level. Despite this fact, in my mind it is utterly abhorrent to withhold the gospel from a group of people just because of their pagan history. The pulpits, lecture halls, and hymns of the fundamentalists are a worthless tool of discourse in this setting. Actually, they are beyond worthless, they actually act to intentionally drive people away they are so alien. While I would take issue that Rap/Hip-Hop music is the only communication medium that is effective to communicate the gospel to many individuals, it is none the less a valuable tool and I thank God that he has blessed his church with individuals who have been given the gifts to communicate the gospel through this medium. It is gross blasphemy for us to think that we can add restrictions based solely on certain cultural biases how the Gospel may be effectively transmitted. I do not read this article to state that rap is inherently sinful. Furthermore, you accurately admit that this medium has been used to share the gospel of Christ. If we believe that salvation requires an act of God, then it seems necessary in these situations that God has acted through the medium of Rap. If rap is in anyway not-glorifying to God, then by working through this medium God has inherently either sinned (which is impossible) or at the minimum sold himself short of a greater glory he could receive from salvation from a more traditional medium (which because of his nature he would never do and would also be sin). This being the case, I see no conclusion, but that God can work through this medium, and for us to call this great work of redemption in anyway sinful is blasphemy against the work of the Lord in the furtherance of his gospel.
This being the case, I see no conclusion, but that God can work through this medium, and for us to call this great work of redemption in anyway sinful is blasphemy against the work of the Lord in the furtherance of his gospel.
Justin,Fourth time is a charm? My first three responses didn’t post for some reason. Your last sentence “This being the case, I see no conclusion, but that God can work through this medium, and for us to call this great work of redemption in anyway sinful is blasphemy against the work of the Lord in the furtherance of his gospel.” I hope you realize what a poorly thought through comment this was. God worked through the means/medium of Christ’s death to bring redemption to men. Is it blasphemy to call crucifying the Lord of Glory sinful?Further, you’re begging the question. You’re already assuming that God has not prescribed methods/means in his public worship to prove that “holy-hip-hop” is a valid method. Dr. Murray has kindly directed people’s attention to the third commandment as understood by the Reformed Community as the grounds for why God has prescribed not only content but methods. I’m not nitpicking, nor am I trying to be a jerk. I just want you to see how illogical and inconsistent your post is. Agree with him or not, Dr. Murray has provided a thoughtful response to this pressing question. His thoughts don’t deserve the rash responses many are throwing out on here. Just a thought.
I’m still confused about something. A quote from B (post right above this one): “Further, you’re begging the question. You’re already assuming that God has not prescribed methods/means in his public worship to prove that “holy-hip-hop” is a valid method. Dr. Murray has kindly directed people’s attention to the third commandment as understood by the Reformed Community as the grounds for why God has prescribed not only content but methods.”I’m not trying to argue, but what specific methods has God prescribed? What style of music should we use? How do we determine what style or rhythm is irreverent?
As an aside, I recently listened to a well known speaker talk about why the YRR movement doesn’t seem to be advancing with much momentum in areas that are traditionally/confessionally reformed. I can only wonder (raise the question?) that perhaps some of it has to do with issues (and responses to issues) like this. Dever, Piper, Mahaney, Driscoll, Chandler (all baptists btw
embrace the medium of Christian hip hop. At T4G Shai Linne performed. It would also be interesting to hear Eric Mason’s take on this (his church, Epiphany Fellowship, is where many of these rappers grew up). As I stated in my previous comment, I affirm the need to raise these types of challenging questions, but in the end, I do think it’s a mistake to call all Christian rap “seriously mistaken.”PS: please no comments about why/how all the above mentioned people are not “truly reformed.” Gotta love intramural reformed debates 
Or not.
Amen, Dr. Murray. Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!
Thanks Dr Murray - appreciate your willingness to take on this issue. I wonder when the music genre is transposed into another culture, leaving the cultural baggage of the forming cuture behind, why not use it? especially if it has appeal across a demographic that has no intention of getting along to a church.. I was struck recently by how completely irrelevant our contemporary Christian soft-rock style fails to engage the emotional heartbeat of young men, many of whom are Christian, who listen to rap, metal and hard-core. Surely there is a place for Christian artists, maybe churches?, in these cultural sub-groups to redeem the cuIture, and win people, for Christ? I also wonder if this isn’t just a segment of the bigger issue of evangelicalsim maintaining cultural relevancy. Could you address this in a future post? Also, what do you say to guys like Driscoll and others who have built whole ministries on the premise of cultural relevancy whilst maintaining theological orthodoxy?
How about we all stop intellectually gratifying ourselves (myself included) and ask the Lord whether He approves? Have you, Dr. Murray or anyone else here really sought the Lord on this (whether for or against)? Should we not feel that God deeply desires to reveal what does or does not glorify Him? I’m not trying to demonize the wisdom of a sanctified mind, but I’m very suspicious of arguments depending wholly on logic rather than a strong leaning on Scripture and communion with the Lord.
Just to let you know, I am still alive…and listening.
Dr David Murray, thank you so much for addressing this issue. Many would not dare to tackle this. God Bless you.I am not very familiar with holy hip hop, however I am sometimes bothered by the lack of enthusiasm that is show during the singing of Psalms, Psalters or Hymns.Psalm63: 2 So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary, beholding your power and glory. 3 Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you. 4 So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands.
Perceptions about other people’s enthusiasm or lack thereof do not always correspond with what is in their heart. It’s not fair to judge people that way.
I see most of the songs as stories and/or commentaries. I can read a commentary by a great Reformed commentator. Why can’t I listen to a commentary rapped out by a Reformed rapper? I often listen to “Don’t Waste Your Life” before I get out of the car to walk into the student union where I am a missionary.I agree that we need to take a look at this issue, but it actually hurts me to hear some of this. I think you would need to get to to know the men themselves, their pastors, their wives and the communities they are in before you can truly pass judgment.
David Murray, since you imply that Christians should only attach themselves to cultural arrangements that have holy roots (not just in corporate worship, but also in daily life), can you provide guidance as to how we should go about finding some? We have heard plenty from the article and from comments about what to avoid, but little about what to accept.
Let me guess, you are a white, suburban male who has never lived in the city? Why don’t you keep listening to your white music with harps and violins and keep your mouth shut. Have you ever been to a christian rap concert? Have you even ever been to a black church? There’s people going to hell and you’re still worrying rap is evil?
A couple of people have made the statement that if David is correct then (shock, horror!) the only thing we would be left to sing is psalms.Well the interesting thing is that for the vast majority of the history of the Christian church that is exactly the conclusion that was formed and practiced and the Church did exclusively sing the Psalms. This has been the majority position in the Reformed church as well since the Reformation.Perhaps it shows just how far we have gone wrong that such an implication (even if not necessary) is seen as amazingly radical and indeed practically unthinkable.
@Paul, people seems to know better the history of hip-hop them the history of the church, specially in that matter of worship.
The problem with online forums is that they lend themselves to misinterpretation. When I mentioned that all we would have left is singing psalms, I never meant to imply that would be bad. I actually would like that.Also, I’m not sure how knowing about the history of hip-hop and the church is mutually exclusive. My point is, if rap is not an acceptable style of worship, then any music with any sort of secular background is unacceptable as well.That leaves us with the psalms. I LOVE the psalms.
Mason said…Most of our glorious holy hymns were originally European drinking songs. The “gospel rap” genre might not be my thing (on a personal preference level) but if we are going to eliminate anything that smacks of secular culture we’ll be left with singing Psalms.
I would like to see somebody answer Stephen’s question above. What is acceptable? How do we know what methods and style of worship are acceptable to God? That’s the important question.
truly abiding by the regulative principle what type of worship could we have in a church? I truly am curious. What is the worship that is Biblicallly prescribed for the New Testament church?I get it, singing Psalms, but what type of music?
Is the classical form of music free of sin-soaked culture as well? Do some research on some of the composers whose music we celebrate. Drug addiction, sexual problems, “keeping company”, all these things were as much a part of older musical periods as they are a part of modern music cultures. The question becomes: What is truly acceptable worship? I’m so fascinated by those of you who seem to unreflectively run to the Puritans as sources free from the corruption of sin. Here’s a question: was “the Lord’s Supper” a rite involving wafers and tiny thimbles of wine? Or was it a Sabbath meal, complete with all the conversation and “fun” that goes along with such meals? Seriously, the lack of reflection on our cultural biases is staggering on these sites. If the concern is primarily for corporate worship, then I may be in agreement that hip hop doesn’t lend itself to unified “singing”. If you truly want to be Biblical, however, bust out the Middle Eastern instruments and start dancing in your underwear. I don’t see very many of you wanting to do that, so we’ll have to keep arguing about what is “biblical” and what is “worldly” when it comes to our time of covenant-keeping. Another question on form: Are songs which speak of our feelings towards God, and our emotions in our circumstances off limits as well? Are we only to sing systematic theology (which I love as long as it informs doxology) about what God has done? The Psalms would dispute anyone who believes this. I appreciate that you are reflecting on something which we are frequently unreflective on, but I disagree with your conclusion.
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Was the hymn rock of ages holy?http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2010/11/11/hit-em-with-the-rock-of-ages/God redeemed ‘Rock of Ages’ which was written more out of spite than love
Larry (and others), you might want to check the “fact” that hymns were European drinking songs. This idea is kicked around all over the place, it needs the equivalent of MythBusters to kick it in the teeth.Hymns are “bar tunes” - this is a Medieval musical structure, not a location where the music was sung. http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/luther.shtmlJeff
What is the difference between clean/unclean and holy/unholy (clean does not equal holy)? How does this affect the way we view Hip-Hop/Rap in PUBLIC WORSHIP.
I think
Sorry about the above post but what I meant to say is When I read your post it caused mixed emotions. I do appreciate your willingness to address this topic and really think through it. I read your title and immediately thought, well you disagree with it but I may have been quick to judge and I do not know that you disagree or agree with it but are trying to discern where you fall. I have been impacted by “holy hip-hop” and have seen the impact of “holy hip-hop” in the inner city. I have seen men radically changed by the Spirit and because of being affected by the hip hop culture use rhymes and words to communicate truth to people.As people have stated many Holy hip-hop rappers will tell you that rap and congregational worship do not mix. There are many of these rappers who are using this medium to communicate truth but who are deeply in love with the local church and many who desire to become pastors themselves. The believe whole heartily in the proclamation of the Word through preaching in the local church context.
Is there ever a line to be drawn where we say: this culture is so corrupted that separation rather than transformation may be the right Christian response?
bleh, my previous post didn’t post and I did not save it. Oh well.
wow! I have to say when I read this I am very saddened. It is hard to hear these things from people I so respect. I have heard this argument on a number of levels from my reformed brothers and each time my soul just drops. Usually the “regulative principle” comes up and that is the final say. This esentially says that these European white men are the final say in what kind of music is sacred. Only classical style hymns are acceptable. Only Western white men and the old western culture is legit. Wow! This hurts man. As a pastor I am very away of my biases and try to never let them come through in my preaching/teaching. All though i would say I don’t do it that well unfortunately. But this is to me blatant “supremacy” from a European brother. I just don’t get it. This is the very picture of a “local god” who is very small and has blond hair and blue eyes. We need to worship the global God of the universe who has created all things/peoples for His glory! In this argument in heaven we will be singing “How great thou art” in english while all other cultures and languages adapt to the real style of worship. Man this is just painful to hear… God is a westerner who loves hymns and he hates anything with rhythm or emotion? Wow… This really does hurt especially coming from a brother who i greatly admire as a reformed soldier in the faith. This is exactly why 99% of all reformed churches are made up of middle aged white guys and from the sounds of this post they are fine with it staying that way. Dr. Murray please bring some biblical perspective to this subject and not your European white biases. PLEASE!!!
@Aaron,Aaron I do not know you, but I hear your cry. I know what you mean when you state the “White European way is the only way” mentality. I myself am Latino, but I am also Reformed and a Presbyterian. I myself decry the genocide that occurred to my ancestors a little over 500 years ago and the “supremacy” mentality that many US denominations exert over nations like those in Latin America. However, what Dr. Murray is stating and arguing for, in the end, is that IN the public worship of God we must not do that which our culture deems acceptable, be it the European way or any other way, but that which God has stated in the Scriptures to be the only and acceptable way to Him. You see many cultures in the west and east, including the middle eastern, in times past did in fact sing the Psalms of David in their worship. They incorporated certain melodies more used to for their particular culture (as God has given lee-way in this aspect of worship), but they sung or chanted the Psalms nonetheless (which is what God has approved for His worship only). Therefore, when we come to sing praise to God, especially in the public worship of His most holy name, we must do so using ONLY the 150 Psalms and not man-made hymns (no matter if they are European, Latino, Asian, or African in origin). If a culture is more given to chanting (as maybe some Asian and other central Asian cultures may be) or to sing the Psalms in a different sort of melody than say the Scottish or Genevan method, as long as it is done reverently and appropriately according to the particular Psalm and as long as the Psalm is properly translated from Hebrew to the proper musical setting (i.e. not some weird paraphrase that is foreign to actual Scripture), then there is nothing wrong with that (let me add that all should be able to sing along too).If in the course of evangelism (outside the public worship and on the street) one has to talk in a “rap” type style cause that is what the target audience knows, I see that as no hindrance to the spread of the Gospel. I was born and raised in the ‘hood in California and I know full well that there is a form of speech that one has to engage in to talk to those of us from the inner city vs. those that may live in, let’s say “hipster” communities. Not to speak for Dr. Murray, but I do not think he is coming from the European way is the only way mentality, but is expressing a true concern to maintain what God has commanded to be done in His appointed worship.In the fairness of full disclosure, I belong to the same denomination of Dr. Murray. My congregation is made up of a Latino family, a Chinese, and White American. Another congregation of ours in the US has more ethnic diversity than most Presbyterian congregations I have been too as well.Hope my comments help? Peace my brother in Christ!
Having read through the article and the comments several times I find a lot of different topics being discussed.As I’ve studied the BIble to be informed on what God is seeking in music when we gather for corporate worship the list includes—songs, hymns and spiritual songs. There are as many different types of hymns as there are as many different emotions expressed throughout the Psalms. Songs and spiritual songs leaves way for a lot of musical variety in my opinion, as plainly stated in Scripture. I don’t think Rap is useful if the whole congregation is to join in the singing/speaking of the song, but I don’t know why it couldn’t be used in a corporate setting as a special musical praise, acclamation, proclamation, etc. As long as it edifies and glorifies God. Most Christian Rap I’ve heard does just that with thought provoking, heart stirring, soul lifting, Gospel centered lyrics.I dont buy the argument that because it has a background of coming from a sinful/pagan culture it is hands off for Christians.I think the elements of music—-notes, rhythm, melody, harmony and silence—are neutral. Most people in our congregations don’t have the ability to sing the more elaborate chorales of Bach, or Handel’s Messiah, or Mendelssohn’s Elijah, or Beethoven’s 9th, either, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use these genres in corporate worship settings or have special musical selections presented in corporate worship services from these masterpieces. Anyone who thinks that modern contemporary artists have invented new or strange rhythms haven’t listened carefully to the great classical composers. The other thing I find is that God asks us to do all that we do with excellence. He asks us for new songs. He asks us to worship Him with all our heart, mind, strength and soul. Heart and mind surrendered to and desiring His glory to be known and manifested. This should be the goal for all we do in worship. I think if by regulative principal as mentioned in the comments, one is meaning that we worship God as He prescribes; using His methods and means, then why would Rap or any other genre of music be negated? God did not tell us to only sing psalms. Just like He hasn’t told us to only preach the Roman Road, or the Sermon on the Mount, or the Law, etc.God is wonderfully Sovereign and gloriously seen in the world when His people use all the creative talents and energy that He has given us as His image bearers.Some of His redeemed are going to write hymns, others songs, others spiritual songs.Praise be to Him for all of it!
OK, into the breach. Or as my kids would say “To infinity and beyond!”Here’s my considered response.http://headhearthand.posterous.com/hopping-mad-about-holy-hip-hop
Preaching is not foolish…Christ Crucified is. “What we preach” is the preferred translation of 1 Cor. 1:21. If you make “preaching” the focus of 1 Cor. 1 over the message of what is preached, then I think you make the same mistake the Catholics do with Matt. 16:18. The message is what is in focus, not the delivery. I do recognize that delivery is mentioned (1 Cor.1:17), But I think this implies a twisting of the message to make it appear more attractive (less foolish) to the natural man…clear examples are displayed in the “preaching” made available on cable TV in our day. We know that Paul reasoned, defended, and contended for the faith…but reasoning with people, defending the truths of the gospel, and declaring intelligible statements about Jesus’ life, death and resurrection, with an emotionally fitting delivery, (i.e. preaching it self), is not by necessity an unaccompanied lecture style speech. What is a necessity in preaching would be preaching the Word! The message MUST be communicated. A proper concern for contextualization is that the message is twisted and lost for the sake for “reaching” the culture (i.e. Emergent). But true contextualization is taking a faithful, intelligible to the hearer, gospel message to the culture (i.e. emerging). Another issue is whether or not we would call all gospel communication “preaching”. Can the gospel be communicated in books, comic strips, tracts, poems, films, and songs? I think so. Would I call that preaching? Not necessarily. There are many great hymns where the gospel is declared with and emotionally stirring accompaniment…that happened to be taken from popular drinking songs in many pubs. Does that diminish the value or effectiveness of those gospel communications? I don’t think so. So ultimately this could be a matter of semantics. Don’t make preaching foolish, you may be tempted to make it foolish! Rather, help the blind man see the beauty of the message…and that may mean using braille…or hip hop.
Appreciate the post. I got off my four nights of work this morning so didn’t take time to read all the comments. I noticed a few names mentioned, Lacrea being one of them. I got to admit I like Lacrea. One of his newest, “Background”, has more depth than most songs sung in most Churchs. “Take me as I am” has a strong message along with “Waste My Life”. I follow him on facebook and he seems genuine. A few things I would like to point out: One: I heard an interview with Trip Lee once and he mentioned “Hip Hop” wasn’t something you brought into a Sunday morning worship service. He seemed (as best I recall) to imply that it was to reach people outside the church with the Gospel. I agee with Your concern, The illustration you gave of Paul not using means outside the preaching of the word was good. I guess what I want to say is hip hop could be a good form of communication for some people. Nothing is any good if it is not of God and the Spirit working regenerating and renewing like it says in Titus 3. Another point I would like to make is: Songs of the past that were widely rejected but are now widely accepted. For example the songs of Fanny Crosby. In her day the songs were considered on the wild side but I haven’t heard anyone today say bad things about, “Blessed Assurance”. I guess I do scratch my head when I hear the beat to “Rescue the Perishing”, lol. Just some thoughts, and thank you for your thoughts. I think I need some sleep, lol.Your brother in Christ, Eric
I totally take in what is being said, but as someone who stopped listening to secular music and Christian Hip Hop became the substitute and ultimately led to some of my Spiritual growth I cant agree. I work for a ministry that reaches out to students of African decent. I know that in most young adult black circles alot of us dont listen to the secular stuff because of the self glorifying messages they promote. When Christian hip hop became available it was as if the Lord heard our cry, and redeemed the music that we used to listen to before we became followers of Christ. I have seen a myriad of black men discipled by Christian hip hop esp by record labels such as (lamp mode, crossmovement, and reach records). I have seen tons of whites and blacks gather at Holy Hip Hop concerts and worship our Holy God or make decisions for Christ, if anything I am noticing that more whites are into the music than blacks. The movement that is starting is challenging young adults to go out and share their faith, give them sound theology that forces them to go back and study their word, and just an overall vehicle for the Holy Spirit to convict and drive us to repentance. I really think its hard for anyone to understand if they arent apart of the culture. You definitely have to be a learner and observer. I just know for the students I reach out to this genre of redeemed music has changed lives for eternity and caused worship and love of the Most High God. More black men are going to seminary and learning what discipleship is which in most black churches doesnt exist. These men are becoming pastors in the inner city and suburbs and fulfilling the great commission. These men are coming alot side me as missionaries and serving people with materials and God’s truth. I really cant see to down side when God is using it to build His kingdom. I think if you would have come to the “Unashamed” tour that reach records just had and saw the thousands of young and old worship God and be challenged to make disciples your concerns would change. You would see that what Satan meant for evil God has completely redeemed and is using it to start movements for Christ.
Update 1: Hopping mad about Holy Hip Hophttp://headhearthand.posterous.com/hopping-mad-about-holy-hip-hopUpdate 2: Lunch with a Christian rapper?http://headhearthand.posterous.com/lunch-with-a-christian-rapper
I came upon your blog as I was searching for the artist of a “holy hip hop” song that was chosen by my nephew. I was moved to post a comment, as I am both encouraged and saddened by you exploration of the use of christian rap, holy hip hop etc. in public worhsip services. You talk about the origins of the music, you talk about the rappers, and you talk about the imperfection of the spirtual content of the music. But you say very little about the people that the music is designed to minister to, and provide no real examples of how this music caused anyone to fall from grace.If we believe Matthew 17 -20 , and can recognize a corrupt tree by the fruit it bears, and a good tree by the fruit it bears, I ask only this: how has holy hip hop or christian rap corrupted anyone? Clearly, you are concerned that it COULD cause harm, and if you are truly praying on this and God is guiding you on this, I would say holy hip hop is not for you. But for me, unless I see that this tree is beginning to bear bad fruit, it is a good tree.Please respond if you actually know anyone who was truly hurt by this genre. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”(Matthew 19)
Have you read the two updates?